The trouble with Forge World in regular games

For those who don't know, this is a Mortis pattern Dreadnought from Forge World. I didn't know that until I started reading a little more of the background about Dark Angels and I found this guy mentioned.
This isn't an option in the Dark Angels Codex, it's a Forge World "thing." You wouldn't have the rules for this unles you have Imperial Armour Vol.2 along with the online FAQ from Forge World detailing the stats on this guy.

Two things your average 40k player does NOT have.

I really want to use this pattern dreadnought but I'm almost certain that opponents will frown upon it. Not because it's overpowered or underpriced in points but because it's an unknown. Locally, players around here just don't use Forge World stuff in regular games.

And I'm not talking about Apocalypse, thats different, you buy the expansion book, you get data the sheets. I'm talking about regular games of 40k with regular FOC's and such.

Forge World is just not that accessable.
Plain and simple.

I suspect that it's like this in alot of places. I envy those areas where it's common and players can use it without a second thought.

Add on the fact that most places/tournaments don't allow Forge World (rules) to be used and you start to wonder why it's even made available.

I want to try and model some Dreadnought autocannons or maybe even drop the money for the real ones (which would be my very first FW purchase) but for what? So they can sit on my desk at home and never get used?

Ron, From the WarpIf you've got any questions about something in this post, shoot me a comment and I'll be glad to answer. Make sure to share your hobby tips and thoughts in the comments below!


  1. Yeah Ron, but they are an uber cool fun factory churning out awesome stuff. Not everyone plays 40K, some just model and paint. Forgeworld is and always will be an extension to the basic game idea, that means fluff derived vehicles and characters and scenarios not commonly seen but mentioned in the rich background of the '40k universe' can be made 'real'. Arvus Lighter anyone?

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  3. Just to let you know, if you're using the blue book, and you want to use that particular pattern there (the two twin-linked autocannons) that you can. It's 10 points for each autocannon, making the dread a total of 125 pts. A steal imo, there one of the only ways that marines can get cheap and pretty effective long range anti-tank. Not to mention they look awesome when you use the aegis defense line autocannon turret. (the forgeworld looks just as good, but I didn't want to deal with the resin) I use three :D

  4. I feel that if forgeworld had a US branch we would see a bit more accessibility here in the US.

    As it stands they make great models but I cant bring myself to buy the expensive 50pound rule books that that when I do an exchange it cost more then the basic box set.

    In addition to the cost of the book their shipping policy kills you also. I think its 15% of the purchase. Or free if you buy 250pounds worth of models.

    So in the end just to get rules to use the cool models its a major investment. I would much rather buy a battle force for that price.

  5. Im a huge fan of the Forgeworld PDF updates they recently released. I don't get to play 40k much (last game was under 4th edition rules) but I love the models, so I enjoy Forgeworld for some of the material they put out, like the conversion packs and brass for Guardsmen.

    But like Anonymous @ 12:07 said - the Mortis Autocannon Dread is in the new Space Marine Codex

  6. I think most of this stems from GW overall. They give a nod to Forgeworld with all the Apocalypse stuff, but most of the tournament rules indicate that Forge World is not allowed, and the Ard Boyz even went so far as to indicate no FW models were allowed.

    So as much as FW puts out some awesome stuff, GW basically says, indirectly, it's not balanced. Most gamers look at that and believe the implied imbalance. We've used some FW stuff in normal games, the biggest problem we run into, is once a couple people get to use the FW stuff, others want to use BoLS stuff, and then people bring up the more likely root of the distrst, the VDR rules.

  7. I've never quite understood the attitude regarding FW rules. ANYONE, and I mean ANYONE, who has ever had a chance to read their rules knows that the models and options are horribly over-pointed. By using FW models and rules, you're almost certainly putting yourself at a disadvantage.

    I get it, the books aren't cheap or accessible, but there's no reason to believe that they're any less official than a codex. FW is GW, GW is FW. However, just becuase I don't have a Necrons codex doesn't mean I can say: "ZOMG, I don't own a Necrons codex soz u can't play Necrons!!1!!!"

    That being said, I wish FW would include a datasheet along with the model so that you don't have to buy a $100 book to game with a $30 model.

  8. Johnathan: Now there's an interseting idea... include the rules with the model.

  9. Ron - I can totally relate to what you are saying here. It's beautiful stuff, but how or when can I use it.
    And it seems like an awful lot of money for a nice desk accessory. For me it's the Eldar Phoenix, great model but really when can I use it.
    Sure the occasional apocalypse game, which I neither have the time or patience for. And honestly I need to buy so many other GW books, that a forgeworld book is an extravagance.
    Shame really, they make some great stuff. - Sherpa

  10. Love it or hate. Forgeworld has beyond cool stuff. The thing about Forgeworld models is that they're exspensive both in money and points. 40k is already a pricy hobby, but throw on a few hundred dollars for a single model it doesn't really add up.
    i mainly get the little detail things like termy shoulder pads and tank doors.

  11. Do what they did with the Blood Angels, release a PDF with the rules for the FW models. Let the books contain all the fluff and cool stuff and make the PDF bare bones and official. Give the rules away for free to sell the models basically. And as long as they always price them a bit expensive (point cost) it won't bring the cheese.

    Oh, and FW, release those dread pods as a cheaper plastic model. I crave them!

  12. DOn't get me wrong guys, FW has great stuff that I would absolutely love to use. But shoulderpads and replacement doors aren't what I'm talking about.

    I gues it goes back to the Codex, DA's came up with the Mortis pattern dread I belive and they don't even have it in their Codex. Regular Marines can get it, but the only way for me to have one is by way of IA vol.2 which, if you can get it, you'll have trouble allowing people to let you use it.

    How am I supposed to build the super cool army I have in my mind (that even follows fluff!) if I can't get the options in my Codex and the only other way is'nt even supported?

    Frustrating to say the least...

  13. I'd say go for it. I've not seen any posts about you playing a lot of tournaments. I'd never turn down a friendly game due to someone wanting to use their FW goodies. They are all neat pieces that you don't run into everyday. Most people worried that much over you using an overpriced (pointswise) unit in your army (because they might not know how to deal with it already) is too worried about winning to be much fun to play anyway. Just my opinion.

  14. I can see you point about FW rules and models.
    but it's a shame you chose as an example one of the few FW models that actually HAVE official rules in the appropriate SM codex ;-) (and it costs less than the imperial armour version, while being EXACTLY the same).

  15. Anon: It's the perfect example... Regular Marines get the option while the guys who "invented" it according to fluff can't get it.

    It's like taking the LRC out of the Templar Codex when it gets redone. They discovered the silly thing, shouldn't they get access to it?

    Unless I go the FW route. Which has all the problems I mentioned.
    And I just looked up the price for 2 autocannon arms. With S&H, it comes in around $25 dollars. Yikes.

  16. Just by appearances, you could use the dual autocannons that come with the new GW Aegis defense system - and get a whole lot of armored barriers besides. They glue separately onto a central turret mount, so a conversion to make them into Dreadnought arms should be a piece of cake. Mine will either end up on top of a Chimera to make a Hydra for a Lost and the Damned-style Guard army (Siege of Vraks books, coincidentally) or an Ork Flakka-Dakka gun mounted on the back of a Trukk converted from a 1/35 scale German halftrack I bought.

    So far as the rules for the Mortis Dreadnought, they're pretty straightforwards and "indisputable" so far as I'm concerned - they even look like an excerpt from a standard Codex on page 7 along with the standard Dreadnought and the Furioso and available for download from Forge World in their Imperial Armor 2 Update PDF file:

  17. It's a shame that some players are so uptight they won't allow Forge World rules in their games. It seems like tournaments and GW's general brand-purity have poisoned a lot of people's minds. It's a game! It's meant for fun! You will not be eaten by Tyranids if you deviate from the codex!

  18. Tinweasel: They look to be exactly the same thing.

    Phasma Felis: I know what you mean, the world is not going to end. While I might be understanding though, that's not necessarily an approach all of the players locally are going to have.

  19. I got to use my Malanthrope in a game last week and it was fun. I hope our gaming group continues to allow fun stuff like that. I find that the more I play, the more lenient I get. I've already started making up rules for things that I plan to use soon, including new missions. It's about having fun.

  20. In our gaming club and the FLGS we have a rule of thumb, every six months someone is going to do a FW order. As we are working up to it it gets posted as a notice on the community message board at the FLGS and word gets passed around the club.
    The idea is to get a group together to make the 250 pound free shipping. If you get four or five guys together it is pretty hard not to get to the price break. Also I maintain a collection of IA books purely on the basis that is if someone wants one pinted in a colour scheme straight out of IA then I have them on hand for reference.

    I guess however this brings me back to your original comments Ron, in our area there are alot of people using FW stuff because we got tired of the same-same look of alot of the armies being done and wanted something very cool to play with on the tables at the FLGS.

  21. The local groups around here are pretty relaxed about models and rules, and are usually willing to allow a model if it is cool looking.

    As a result, we get a lot of conversions and homebrew datasheets for stuff, just to keep things interesting.

    If someone has a model or rules that are too unbalanced, a conversation about making them fairer is usually enough to make everyone comfortable playing with it. Rarely do I see someone have to put away their model due to an objection.

    In the end, it's a game...

  22. I agree, it's a game. I'd love to see a little more leeway all around. A little more FW stuff too, rules, models, etc.
    Of course , most people around these parts don't have a written list or even a fully painted army so getting Forge World upgrades is beyond that.

    I suppose it could be tough to ask someone to have a written list, bring their Codex and have a painted army AND then turn around and ask if I can use some FW rules.

  23. If Forge World put out affordable books containing the rules for the models, that would help their acceptance.

    If Forge World didn't periodically write things like the Deathwind Drop pod, that would help their acceptance.

  24. Just use magnets, Ron. You're a master modeler. Get some Aegis Autocannons and some magnets and viola. If you're opponent is lame slap on the regular load out.

  25. FW also targets the modeller side that GW doesn't do as much - things like the Arvus, the Atlas and the Trojan - all pretty useless in a game, but nice in a diorama. The books also contain heaps of great fluff, pics and scenarios to play (not just 40k - the Siege of Vraks has scenarios for BFG and Epic too)

    Similarly I'd still have my Titans even if apocalypse wasn't around, and my brother would have his two Marcharius. It's the same reason I have an Ork and Eldar army, and two Blood Bowl teams, and those SoBs I've never played a game with - I like the minis plain and simple.

    Tightwad gamers are a PITA - not allowing Forgeworld in a pickup is lame by my standards, maybe it's coming from RT and 2nd ed where you needed to bring half a dozen WDs to the table to have all the rules you needed, but so long as someone has the rules and I can look them over beforehand I'll play them.

    As for shipping, I'm in Australia and what I do is just blow a huge amount on shipping (I'm used to it) or get an order with a bunch of guys to boost up the value.

    If you have five other guys adding in a few sets of extra armour, some shoulder pads, a dreadnought and other little bits and pieces it adds up pretty quick.

  26. Yeah, anyone who's gonna get their panties in a bunch over two twin-linked autocannons is pretty lame. I'd magnetize the arms and use the points value from the vanilla SM codex -- if you play someone whose not cool with that either swap the arms, or find a less AR personality to play.

    PS I'm always up for a game.

  27. I think when I get the Codex build for the Dreads done, I'll look at converting the autocannon arms for them.
    As for buying them from FW, that's a little steep for even my budget theses days.

    I think it would be cool to try them out, I don't think they are game breakers, but I'll drop the idea at the first sign of resistance from an opponent.

    They're just to cool not to try at least once.

  28. I would definitely say I am an FW fan. I don't own any titans or superheavies. Their true interest for me are the little kits they put out that make your models unique and less bland. I look at it like this; GW models are the ice cream, FW accessories are the jimmies and hot chocolate poured on it. Yeah, you could just eat the plain old ice cream, but who doesn't want hot chocolate on their ice cream? I tell you who; communists. Commies hate hot chocolate on their icy cold milk treats. Ergo, commies hate Forge World. And anything a bunch of freedom hatin' reds hate, I love.

    In all seriousness, like many commenters have said they have an FW order every couple of months or so, ditto for my FLGS. I believe that FW is just a deeper delving into our hobby, and it only applies to the really hardcore collectors/rich eccentrics.

    As an aside, we just got our order in(express shipping ftw). I ordered the double dual autocannons because I thought it would be neat to toss that bad Larry onto the field and have my opponent be kinda jealous. But what do I know?

  29. I agree with Ron that most people locally don't use FW models, mostly for a lack of money. Still, I think that warhammer should be played for fun before all other things. I think using this FW dreadnought would add even more excitement to a game 'because' it is unknown. (As well as very cool looking)

  30. I only play games that have FW models.

    But then again I really only play against my friend who enjoys to field support vehicles, heavy towing tractors, and other pieces of insanity that really do nothing except get blown up.

    I think his next purchase is a Vulture Gunship.

  31. The Mortis used to be a Standard DA upgrade. I think it was introduced in the 2nd Ed. I know it was certainly in in Codex: Angels of Death. It angered many DA players that it was excluded from the "new" dex and even more so when it became an upgrade for Asartes players. Ok, tantrum over.

    FW, at least the way I see it, is GW's ultimate hobbyist's workshop. Where they can invent without the limitations of the consumer market.
    We'd have never had the plastic baneblade with all it's options had it not been for FW's resin casts and experimental rules.

  32. I got to say I love the Forge World products. I have two Tyranid Hierodules back when 3rd ed was out. I still have yet to find a player who would let me use them. Even knowing that I would not be able to use them I still would buy them again, they are just cool.
    The real problem with Forge World stuff is access to rules. If the rules were more accessible more people would buy and use Forge World products.

  33. I think it all comes down to the attitude of the player. Why are you in the hobby, what keeps you here? For me it has always been able great looking models first and then game play second. Often times I will start an army just to use X model before I ever buy a codex or look at an army list or special rules.

    FW has some beautiful models so naturally I am a regular purchaser and try to fit something cool from FW into all the armies I build and paint. Another thing to notice is that FW models has started showing my in GW Codex, the IG codex the biggest offender of late. I expect as we continue into 5th seeing this as a trend more and more. Also forge world has been known to release models to fill gaps left in the GW release lines. The Warboss on Bike model is the first to come to mind in this category.

    Whether you purchase FW or not is really up to you. Yes the prices are high, the shipping expensive, and the assembly process more complex, but in the long run I think the results, which can vastly out shine even some of the nicest GW models, is well worth the time, money, and effort.

    Ron, I know we have never met in person, at least not yet. If you ever want to through down and try out some the that FW stuff, I would have no problem with that. I'm sure a good amount of players out there, at least the ones that do not take the game overly seriously would be more then happy to let you use the FW stuff if you ask first. Bring that stuff up to GW Sugarland some time, I can't think of anyone that would say no that plays there.

  34. FYI for anyone interested, I did exactly this conversion not to long ago using a Black Reach Dreadnought and Aegis Defense Line set. You can see the conversion here.

    What's cool about this is that it was so (relatively) cheap. I got the BR Dread at Gen Con for $10 and the Aegis kit is normally just $22. So, for less than the cost of a regular dreadnought box and some extra work I (re)produced the Mortis (or, Rifleman as I put it). Forge World would have been easier and perhaps a bit cleaner, but this was inexpensive enough for anyone to afford.

    Frankly, that is my knock on Forge World in general -- great stuff that is usually too pricey to be worth it. If those prices were in Dollars rather than Pounds I would be purchasing stuff of their website on a weekly basis. Since they are not, however, in reality I've gotten only a few things from them. As it stands now it's hard to justify spending the money.

  35. I had this discussion in a german forum whrer i am a regular.
    It was about using the FW stuff in regular games, not the superheavies and flyers just things like this mortis dread.
    After my experience the most players will let u play this dread if u ask before the game and show them the rules.
    Thats my experience with FW stuff and rules but im using the Prometheus variant Land Raider.

  36. Cost's the thing, for me.

    On the one hand, stuff that's in the codex already can be done just fine; if I were going to go Chaos Marines I'd be tempted to go Khorne from those amazing conversion kits.

    On the other hand, the stuff that's got Forge World rules? There's the kit plus a $50 book, plus the shipping times. While it's neat, it's not necessarily something you'd get to use all the time.

    On the other hand, some of the larger toys are a bit 'eh'. I think Titans are neat, but on my end I don't play enough Apocalypse to really get the mileage out of them.

    I'd not necessarily object to playing the stuff, but I'd like to figure out whether or not something's that balanced. Might be interesting, but I think a lot of the larger stuff simply belongs in Apocalypse for fun.

  37. Well I am going to have to say that you all have very good points on all this. I for one used FW on a regular basis regardless of the game or opponent. But for me it was because I went and slowly (and I do mean slowly) replaced out all my Tau Crisis Suites with FW ones. They were still kitted out with the codex options, they just had cooler looks to them. And out of all the time that I played with them no one ever said that I couldn’t use them. But this maybe a difference of trying to use FW models with alternate rules over using FW models with codex rules too.
    Ron, you know that the battle bunker up in Glen Burnie carries FW models/books. I know that it is not that long of a drive for you and if you do it right you can get a group together and all go up there to play for a day. They have fantastic tables and a nice staff (well they did when I was up there last).

  38. That just makes me sad,
    The only places I know of to get FW kits in Australia is:
    1) Forgeworld
    2) Ebay (shudder)
    3) Back2Basix (range

    which is why we get groups orders together an go direct to the source.
    At least they replace missing or badly cast parts. (of which I never have personally had issue with)

  39. Forge World stuff is used often around here, almost every week in our leagues. The general rule is: bring the rule book with you for what you are using (if it something not covered in your codex).

  40. You know, there's one thing we all missed here:

    Quad-autocannon dreadnoughts are perfectly Codex-legal for fifth-ed Space Marines. :)


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